H. Allen Orr on The God Delusion II
Those of you who read the first installment of my response to H. Allen Orr’s New York Review of Books review of The God Delusion will have noticed that I simply ignored the last two sections of the review, Sections 4 and 5. Perhaps a good way to start with an assessment of these sections is to quote Orr’s astonishingly dismissive last sentence:
But if such discussions are to be worthwhile, they will have to take place at a far higher level of sophistication than Richard Dawkins seems either willing or able to muster.
Ouch! Orr is talking about discussions between religion and science, and his completely unnuanced judgement is that Dawkins has nothing to offer. This man takes no prisoners! Indeed, throughout the review there is a barely contained contempt for the author of The God Delusion. Dawkins is not only wrong. He is shallow, repetitive, Victorian, middlebrow, unable to sustain argument and not very good at it, has nothing new to offer, his project is probably not even meaningful, he lacks metaphysical imagination (whatever that is), has avoided religious thought “(he cannot … tolerate the meticulous reasoning of theologians)”, and, just to add the crowning touch, he’s wrong on practically every major point that he addresses. It’s a remarkable piece of intellectual demolition — or, at least, attempted demolition.
But is he right? Certainly, there are aspects of Dawkins’ book which appear to someone who has, say, read theology and philosophy for fifty years, simplistic and superficial. When I first read the book I reacted much as Orr does, though a little more positively, and even, dare I say?, modestly, since I was going through the process of abandoning faith at the time, and for someone like that, sophisticated theological argumentation would have been no good; it would merely have thrown qualifications into my way, instead of solid obstacles, and so would have encouraged me, as no doubt I had for years, to vacillate a little longer. But I received a copy of The God Delusion shortly before I read Rowan Williams’ (the Archbishop of Canterbury) Christian qualifications, in his speech to the House of Lords, regarding assisted dying. Of course, one would never accuse Williams of being deliberately clear, where opaqueness is possible, but on this issue he seemed definite and disastrous enough to demand an unqualified response: anyone who could speak thus about suffering cares not a whit for those who suffer because his god will not permit him to express compassion or to act with reasonable charity.
It is interesting that Orr should mention the meticulous reasoning of theologians. Here was a theologian, a former Regius Professor of Divinity at Oxford, using all his theological skills to ensure that people suffering intolerably should continue to suffer without the option. That sort of reasoning soon puts the meticulous reasoning of theologians in perspective! It never occurs to Orr — perhaps through lack of imagination — that theologians are party men, whose purpose is to keep the institution running, and to provide the ideological groundwork which will enable ordinary folk, like Orr, to believe that this is being done with all the careful thought and the prodigious imagination of those who really know, and have close acquaintance with the subtleties and profundities of powerful religious experiences. Did it never occur to him that those sophisticated theologians are, like so many bureaucrats, bound by life decisions made long ago, and are not fit to do anything else now, and so are bound to the wheel of meticulous thought until they can fade gracefully from the scene? Like many other intellectual disciplines, theology is a skill, one which is, to a greater extent than other such pursuits, almost consciously isolated from other disciplines, since it is only an intellectual discipline on sufferance. It has no essential relationship to any other field of knowledge, and is only out of politeness referred to as knowledge at all. Jefferson was right to exclude theology from his university.
Perhaps Dawkins could have profited by a deeper acquaintance with the thoughts of theologians — even meticulous ones — for then he would have had graphic evidence of the irrelevance of so much that passes itself off as profound and important. If Eriugena has something important to say about subjectivity, as Terry Eagleton alleges, then it belongs to philosophy, not theology. But Rahner on grace? In the absence of some reasonable assurance that there really is a god, and that this god visits the faithful with his/her/its grace — well, there’s not much room for fruitful discussion here. I can recall, many years ago now, deciding that, since we talked about God’s grace all the time in the church, in the liturgy, in the readings from the scriptures, we would have a “study group” on the subject of grace; and while I do not now remember what we discussed, what books I used in an endeavour to understand this elusive concept, the result was profoundly dissatisfying. The study raised far more questions than it answered, and encouraged doubts about the meaningfulness of religious language, instead, as I had hoped, of deepening people’s religious experience and the sense of the presence of god. Though I cannot say for sure now, since the process was a subtle one, my path out of religion may have begun with this study, initiated with such hope, and concluded with so much uncertainty. These were early days with Elizabeth then, when we were, as she said, “courting” (something that is difficult for a married man to do (even though separated) under the watchful eyes of bishops and parishioners), and Elizabeth was not a believer.
But back to Orr. Section 4 of Orr’s review addresses the question of the evil of religion compared with atheism. I think it is fair to say that Chapter 8 of The God Delusion, “What’s Wrong with Religion? Why be so Hostile?” reflects some of the very disturbing experiences that Dawkins had during the making of the documentary film, Religion: Root of all Evil? Whatever the source of the name, the film speaks for itself. Some of the clips are profoundly disturbing: the Jewish convert to Islam in Jerusalem who dismisses all non-Muslims as kafir who have no right to live in the land of the Muslims; the Christian fundamentalist who does not shrink from applying Old Testament penalties to those who work on Sunday (stoning), homosexuals, or those who worship other gods; the boldly arrogant Ted Haggard, who counsels Dawkins, arrogantly, not to be arrogant; the Christian who justifies the murder of physicians who perform abortions; the children who are brought up to affirm lies because they are religious, and to dismiss the truth because it contradicts scriptures written, variously, thousands of years or 1300 years ago. I think I would have found it difficult to maintain my rational cool while interviewing people with such truly repugnant beliefs, as Dawkins did, but, whether controlled or not, coming face to face with such people would have changed me. It would have convinced me that we would be better off without religion.
And so we come, at last, to the balance sheet of horror. Which is worse, religion or atheism? Which has killed more people? Here we can begin to argue whether anyone’s motives are really purely religious or purely atheistical. “Does anyone really believe,” Orr asks parenthetically, “that the Church’s dreadful dealings with the Nazis were motivated by its theism.” Well, actually, I think I do. Does anyone believe that the coverup of the massive sexual abuse of children by catholic priests and bishops was motivated by theism? Of course it was. The church is all about god. The dignity and the good name of the church are of the first importance in the church’s mission to spread the good news of Jesus Christ to the world. To the extent that the church is discredited, to that extent the church’s mission is impaired. The same thing goes for its relationship with Nazism. At the time it was a widespread belief in church circles that Nazism was a better bet than communism. Besides, communism was largely Jewish — the church did buy into the Nazi myth about the Jewishness of communism – and, in any event, Christianity was profoundly antisemitic anyway. So a concordat with Hitler was, of course, a benefit to the church, and anything that benefits the church benefits its mission. Hitler may have been disingenuous in agreeing to the concordat, but it gave his government credibility in the eyes of the world. After all, the Vatican had given its nihil obstat. To suppose that this had nothing to do with the church’s theism is simply to misunderstand the church.
What, then, about Stalin’s atheism? According to Dawkins:
What matters is not whether Hitler and Stalin were atheists, but whether atheism systematically influences people to do bad things. There is not the smallest evidence that it does. [273]
Is this convincing? Orr says no. “Dawkins,” he says:
has a difficult time facing up to the dual facts that (1) the twentieth century was an experiment in secularism; and (2) the result was secular evil, an evil that, if anything, was more spectacularly virulent than that which came before.
Yet I am not convinced. The real experiment with secularism is taking place right now in Western democracies. The communist experiment in Russia, China and Cambodia scarcely qualifies as a secular experiment. They were historicist absolutisms which developed in a straight line (through Marx and Engels) from Hegel’s belief that history is the unfolding of Absolute Spirit. In a moment Orr is going to question whether “Dawkins’ project is even meaningful.” And he questions this on the basis of a belief in the idea that historical periods are organically related to periods that have preceded them. Listen:
As T.S. Eliot famously observed, to ask whether we would have been better off without religion is to ask a question whose answer is unknowable. Our entire history has been so thoroughly shaped by Judeo-Christian tradition that we cannot imagine the present state of society in its absence. [my emphasis]
And then he goes on to up the ante just a bit more:
Even what we mean by the world being better off is conditioned by our religious inheritance. What most of us in the West mean — and what Dawkins as revealed by his own Ten Commandments, means — is a world in which individuals are free to express their thoughts and passions and to develop their talents so long as these do not infringe on the ability of others to do so.
Here he interjects the surmise that this would not be a better world from a Confucian point of view. However, this does not make Eliot’s point. Eliot was an Anglocatholic Anglican and had developed a whole theory of cultural erastianism in which Christianity, while subordinate to secular law, was organically related to the whole concept of the nation. For Eliot Christianity and England were inseparable. But Orr can’t have it both ways. He can’t both say that the values that Dawkins celebrates are so rooted in Christianity that his atheist project is meaningless, and that the secularism of Soviet Russia was not also rooted in Christian values, so that the Soviet experiment was meaningless apart from its cultural rootedness in Orthodox Christianity.
Orr is simply confused. The values that (according to Orr) Dawkins approves are not obviously Christian values. Certainly Christianity is keen to take credit for democratic freedoms, the right to express our own views, and to follow our own preferences as to how a good life should be lived, but there is no evidence that Christianity, without the Enlightenment rejection of Christian supremacy, would have led ineluctably to the values that most people in the West now treasure, and treasure so much that Christians are compelled to consider them parts of the Christian heritage itself. John Haught suggests that, were we to drop God like Santa Claus the whole of Western culture would collapse, “including our sense of what is rational and moral.” (God and the New Atheism, 22) This kind of hyperbole is common amongst the champions of theology, but, if true, it simply means that we cannot escape religion, and everything that is done, is done in religion’s name. It seems that Orr paints himself into this corner.
The truth is, I think, that atheism has never really been tried. No reasonable person could consider communism the practical application of atheism. Certainly, it shows something that needs no showing, that people, whether they do or do not take religious beliefs seriously, are capable of the most dreadful inhumanity. But this is not in question. I think Orr is right in supposing that culture is still too integrally tied up with religion to make the secular experiment fully secular. Religions continue to threaten the experiment, and many want to overturn it, even where it seems to be showing signs of significant success. Places like Switzerland, for example, which have adopted, against the grain of religion, compassionate laws respecting the right of people to choose how they will die, are being constantly challenged by religion, as was the case in the recent referendum in the Canton of Zurich over whether assisted suicide should remain legal, and whether non-residents should have the right to come to Switzerland to die. Fortunately, the religious forces took a drubbing, but, as Dawkins says, such places are rare “[m]ostly because of the influence of religion.” (357)
Bringing this already too long post to a conclusion. Orr is simply mistaken in my view. He takes theology altogether too seriously. He accuses Dawkins of not paying enough attention to the meticulous argumentation of theologians, but he has not given us one example of how attention to this meticulous argumentation would have contributed to his project. He peremptorally dismisses Dawkins’ attempt to compare the world that atheism might produce with the evils of the world that religion has wrought, without noticing that he inconsistently argues that secularism has not yet been tried, and that therefore Dawkins’ project is meaningless. Orr is, in short, desperately confused, and I think he is confused because religion has confused him. Religion presents itself as rational, but it is not, and a defence of religion is bound to end up saying silly things. Orr’s review is no exception to this rule.

Anyone who calls a totalitarian regime that actively bans religion “secular” doesn’t know what the word means. Maybe Orr should have paid more attention to the meticulous argumentation of secularists?
Ugh. This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. Somehow, religion (specifically so-called “Judean-Christian” religion) gets all the credit for these achievements. However, infringing on the freedoms of others seems pretty darn common in religion. And not just in theocracies. It’s also not like religion came up with concepts as “freedom of religion” or “freedom of speech” – just check the 10 Commandments. Wouldn’t it be much more accurate to say “our current society is founded on the ideals of the Enlightenment”?
This is really good, Eric, and hits several nails on the head. One thing I should be very interested in seeing you do (though you might not want to, and if you don’t, don’t!) is to write a piece detailing in what respects you think the arguments of Dawkins, Hitchens and others would have benefited, or might benefit, from a greater knowledge of church history and theology; I recall you saying some days ago that their lack of knowledge of these things sometimes alarmed you a bit.
Yes, religion is a selective thief claiming on its own authority all good as being derived from its central tenets while assigning all bad to the unholy separation from its proper dogma. Nice gig… right up until you look at the overwhelming contrary details. But when one points out the contrary details, it’s always the fault of believing in the wrong interpretation, the wrong examples, the wrong practices, the wrong conclusions… without any means to clarify the right ones except by the very authority one is questioning. Accepting this authority is called sophisticated theology, while questioning it is called militant and strident arrogance that undermines morality.
But now that the ground rules have been clearly defined and fully settled, let’s have a respectful discourse.
The British philosopher John Gray ties communism (bolshevism), nazism and neo-conservatism to Christian apocalyptic thought in his informative book “Black Mass: Apocalyptic Religion and The Death of Utopia” (2007). Here he deconstructs the naive notion that “atheism” was the driving force behind communism and nazism.
In his latest book, “The Immortalization Commission: The Strange Quest to Cheat Death” (2011), Gray demonstrates further how religion influenced bolshevism. Now orthodox Christianity and its believe in bodily resurrection. This explains the embalming of Lenin: They thought that science would in the future enable them “resurrect” Lenin and other important figures. Interesting book.
I agree; that would be interesting.
I have wondered in the past if it is possible to avoid confirmation bias when one thinks of one’s self as a theologian. Believers often accuse nonbelievers of ignoring other possibilities of existence, but isn’t that what theology does on a daily basis?
“…something that needs no showing, that people, whether they do or do not take religious beliefs seriously, are capable of the most dreadful inhumanity.”
A difference being that the religious can deny any responsibility to themselves for much of said inhumanity, because they are dutifully doing it for God.
We were told that the “sophisticated” arguments of someone like Peter S. Williams have devastated Dawkins, but I don’t see that they have – modal logic notwithstanding. The magic bullet doesn’t appear to be any where in the theological literature or else someone like Orr would have used it. “Sophisticated” arguments don’t make theology any more true – just more obscure – and, in the end, it always comes down to faith – god just is.
“The study raised far more questions than it answered, and encouraged doubts about the meaningfulness of religious language, instead, as I had hoped, of deepening people’s religious experience and the sense of the presence of god.”
Eric, did you have that sense? If you did, what was it like? Cognitively, I mean – what did it seem like?
What I mean is…did it seem veridical in some special way? Did it seem different from imagining and the like?
Does it now seem to you clearly non-veridical?
These are all impertinent questions, but I’m pretty sure you don’t mind them and are as interested in what they’re getting at as I am. If I’m wrong of course just ignore them!
Did it ever seem to you at the time that it wasn’t the kind of thing that ought to be taken at face value (whatever face value was!), or was it so helpful to you as a minister that you didn’t look at it that way?
I’m always curious about how people can take those experiences as evidence of “God” so I’m curious about what it was like.
Put it like that, I’d have to say no. I think I had an inkling of what it was like when I first read Dennett’s Breaking the Spell. The language that I used, and that you quote, is standard religious boilerplate, so that’s how I would have spoken of it then, but it really is a belief in belief, and, looking back, I can’t really say that I had religious experiences or felt the presence of god. No, I would say now that I never had such experiences or felt such a presence. It was all, in some sense, the effect of religious language — and religious ritual, music, etc.
To be personal and “confessional” for a moment… I think you know, Ophelia, that my childhood was unhappy. When I came to Canada in 1959 at 18 I spent several years in confusion, cultural confusion, deeply alienated. Being a Third Culture Kid — that is, brought up in another country, but not in that country’s culture, and not in my own, whatever “my own” might have been — I did not belong here. In some ways I still do not belong here, or, rather, I do not belong again. For 20 years, half of them watching the person I loved more than life itself slowly and painfully dying, I belonged in a way that I had never thought possible. I experienced something, a depth of personal relationship, a love, that I would have thought impossible, if anyone had tried to tell me about it, a depth and richness of experience in comparison with which talk of god not only seemed unreal and distant, but increasingly just talk.
People in the parish from which I retired to care for Elizabeth during the last year and a half of her life tell me now that it was interesting watching me lose my faith in public. I didn’t know that I was doing it, or I only half knew. (Belief in belief — which had clung to me since childhood — is a very powerful thing.) A retired priest in the parish used to tell me to “slow down, or I would talk myself out of a job.” It was a joke between us, but I knew that I was heading away from religious faith, and I knew, too, that I couldn’t talk myself out of a job, not at my age, and not with Elizabeth so sick and dying. I wrote ‘belief’ first a moment ago, but I wouldn’t have said it that way, because there wasn’t anything that I could have said, at that time, that I believed. Because, by that point, I didn’t believe in any significant sense at all. I had done a concentrated study of the Holocaust over those years when Elizabeth was suffering so much, to see, as Elizabeth put it in her journal, where god was in all this pain (and of course it was her pain that I had to understand) and “belief”, whatever belief I still had, simply disappeared in the horrors of those years. (I understand Darwin fully, in his response to the suffering and death of his daughter Anne.) And yet, I have to say, that’s really a fudge, and those who use the word ‘faith’ instead of ‘belief’ know that it’s a fudge. The hollowing out of religious belief has gone very far in liberal religion.
But of course, for me, though I never consciously misrepresented myself — that’s why people knew that I was ‘losing my faith’, because I never lied to them. I never told them I believed something I did not believe, and I told them — it got a bit embarrassing towards the end, since I had so little positive to say about the church, Christianity, the Bible, the creeds — exactly where my problems lay with so many many things.
In fact, I spoke at Elizabeth’s memorial service, which was held in the town we had lived in for so long, and many members of the parish came, because Elizabeth was very highly regarded and much loved, though the memorial was non-religious. The archdeacon who had succeeded me was there, and she was, apparently, incensed at what I said, thinking that it would have such a destructive effect on people’s faith (there’s that word again), but someone told her: “Oh, don’t worry. He didn’t say anything today that people haven’t heard him say before!”
I don’t know that that answers your question, Ophelia, but it’s a stab at it anyway. As for the cognitive content of ‘faith’, I think, looking back over all those years belief in god was something like believing in Santa Claus as a child. There are experiences and expectations, but no objective correlate, never. I remember as a very small boy trying to figure out ways to determine whether Santa Claus really did exist, but they usually failed because I fell asleep, or, knowing my plan, my parents would leave the evidence that I was looking for. In fact, when I think of it, I had more evidence (at the time) for Santa’s existence than for the existence of god!
“The truth is, I think, that atheism has never really been tried.”
Anyone who makes a decision based on evidence rather than authority, prior assumptions or ‘gut feelings’ is trying atheism. Atheism at its core is simply a refusal to trust what other people say or write unless you also share the reasons that they give for what they say or write.
‘Trying atheism’ is just putting the same thought and effort into evaluating religious claims that you put into evaluating advertisements on television, political speeches, company prospectuses. All it requires is opening the door in your mind which the religious would prefer you to keep shut.
I believe the world — well, the West at least — is slowly getting more rational. And one hallmark of that is the growing recognition that EVERYBODY — not just the religious — has their own agenda, and that going along with an ideology just because you agree with some of it, or you like its leaders, is a stupid and dangerous thing to do. The old ideologies of Left and Right — equally as stupid as any religious affiliation — are also breaking up, as did Communism in the Comintern, and for more or less the same reason — people now have the time and the education to make their own decisions, and increasing numbers of them have decided to ‘try atheism’.
Gosh, Eric. If I might inquire beyond the Christian to christian progression you so poignantly describe, what was it like at the moment, or the realization, or whatever you’d like to call it where you went from what you to “wow, this is bullshit and I’m done”? Was that final step more difficult (like, say, the way one’s childhood just kind of fades slowly as one grows up versus the day when one packs away his life and tosses the final teddy bear–don’t judge me!– in the chest before the big move)? Was in that vein for you, or was it more like, meh, it’s Monday. God doesn’t exist. Gotta take out the trash?
My own giving up of the faith (of which I always fully aware was in part an affectation on my part. I was never convinced, but I went along with all to make nice) was fairly anticlimactic. Someone asked me one day why I thought a god existed. I pondered it for a moment; saw no apparent reason to think the claim was true. That turned the coffee I’d started as a christian into a coffee I finished as an atheist. Looking back on it now, I can’t recall having any emotion about that particular event at all. It was really akin to taking care of an unexpected drop-in on a honey-do list.
I’ve seen “testimonies” of people who were devoutly religious, and it seems they suffer a hell on earth throughout the process. I am ordinarily not inclined to think that emotional ones are being perfectly genuine, but that might well be just because of how artificial I felt about it the whole while I was trying to believe it.
It always amazes me when the right wing christo-fascists in the US declare that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian values.
Really? Show me one place where it states that a leader is to be elected … and for a finite term of office. Show me where the concept of a bicameral legislature is invoked. Show me where an independent and co-equal judiciary is created.
Show me any political concept other than kingdoms. Including the ultimate kingdom of the “lord of lords” — whose appearance we apparently just dodged by the skin of our teeth.
I want Orr — or anyone else — to tell me what the fuck those values have to do with our “religious inheritance.” On any sensible reading of history, these are the values of the Enlightenment and liberalism, which were born and realized (to the extent that they have been realized) in direct opposition to religious authoritarianism at every turn. Democracy existed long before Christianity, and Christianity did nothing to advance democracy and everything to suppress anything remotely resembling democracy, political equality, and generally speaking the self-determination of humanity for many centuries. (Divine right of kings, anyone? The Holy Roman Empire? Calvin’s Geneva? Hello?)
Our “religious inheritance” is heavily weighted towards intellectual and political slavery and away from any sort of independence and liberty, and anyone who denies that is a liar or a fool — or both.
“Does anyone believe that the coverup of the massive sexual abuse of children by catholic priests and bishops was motivated by theism?”
The Vatican’s “Guidelines to Bishops” for dealing with claims of priest sexual abuse was released on May 16:
See http://www.sexualabuseclaimsblog.com/2011/05/vaticans_abuse_guidelines_acti.html and my comment.
This is a brilliant post, Eric.
The communist experiment in Russia, China and Cambodia scarcely qualifies as a secular experiment. They were historicist absolutisms which developed in a straight line (through Marx and Engels) from Hegel’s belief that history is the unfolding of Absolute Spirit.
I’m glad you have said this. I think that it is a point which cannot be made often enough. Historicism borders on mysticism, a sort of religious thinking around the god Destiny. What we really owe to Christianity is not humane values but the reinforcing of a condition of mind which sees our lives in terms of some ultimate significance which lies beyond the world of the individual, of the person. We don’t need Christianity to do this; we can do just as well (i.e. badly) with History and Destiny and Progress and lump it all together in Nazism. Christianity has given us the tools, the iconography, the teleology, and through its own example has taught us how to corrupt anything in the service of the Great Purpose. Marxism comes out of the same eschatalogical stable.
If one wanted to demonstrate the final end to which Christianity has tended over two thousand years, one only has to point to Nazi Germany and Communist Russia. The torture chambers and the abominable cruelties of Catholics and Protestants, the techniques of thought reform and moral blackmail which were perfected by the Church during the Middle Ages, give the lie to all that religious talk about the value of the person. The freedom of the individual cannot be permitted in the context of the eternal destiny of God’s Plan for his creatures.
Steindór, I was thinking about John Gray, too. His great mistake is to class Enlightenment thinking with beliefs in Progress and Destiny etc. Just because it is possible to insist on social justice does not mean that anyone who cares about it is yet another doctrinal fanatic. The Enlightenment was the first time since the fourth century that people began once again to be able to express and insist on, not a religion-based morality, but merely decent human values, values which had hitherto always been regarded as contemptible or heretical. The aim of the merely decent has always been the same: not a mystical belief in progress and an ideal world but to learn how to live and let live. The very idea of such a thing is anathema to religions and ideologies of every kind. But they can’t destroy our humanity, and that is why compassionate believers cherry-pick their useless scriptures and why the rest of us throw the deluded twaddle away.
Forgive my ignorance: is Dr. Dawkins a scientist?
Eric, I agree with Tim. I’m not sure how the “Four Horsemen” books really would have benefited from incuding more theology, but I’d be interested to hear your take.
“That turned the coffee I’d started as a christian into a coffee I finished as an atheist.”
Exactly–a good way to say it. I have always thought that the phrase “losing my faith” was inaccurate. I never “lost” my faith so much as I outgrew it through reading and thinking, age and experience–just as I outgrew rather than lost my faith in Santa Claus.
Thank you, Eric. It does answer my question(s) – there is no definitive general answer, but it answers these specific questions.
I think…however indignant critics get with “militant” atheism, I think we are doing people in general a service if we can make room for them to stop feeling obliged to believe in belief.
Yes. An evolutionary biologist and ethologist. If you get the chance, some of his books on evolution are classics. The Blind Watchmaker is my favourite, especially the chapter on bats. But there are many others.
Ah, that’s a tall order. I’ll give it some thought. I’m not altogether sure that it would indeed benefit TGD to have taken more note of sophisticated theologians. However, there were a few times when I thought that a little bit more attention to the way theologians actually argue might have been helpful. It would have shown in more detail why and in what ways theology was a “discipline” without a subject. I can say that, because I think that there is notgod, but to show that theology reflects this lack of subject matter would be worthwhile doing, I think. But, as I say, it really is a tall order, and would require some concentrated reading in theology, just to confirm things that believe I will find. I’m not too sure that’s something I want to do just now. Anyway, what with lawns and gardens and carpentry and reading and the blog and just trying to go on going on, it really does seem a bit of a challenge.
Clearly,
DawkinsOrr could have profited by a deeper acquaintance with the thoughts oftheologianshistorians!/@
I get so sick of the way that the communist states under Stalin and Mao are trotted out as an example of the evils of atheism. They weren’t replacing religion with rational atheism; they were replacing it with a different ‘religion’ – communism. Religion provided a challenge to their power and control and so they removed it to replace it with their own ideology. Communism became an irrational and enforced belief, and personality cults surrounding the leaders virtually amounted to worship.
If you want a good example of how communism was similar to a religion (and the antithesis of rational atheism) – just look at Lysenkoism.
Oooo, yes, the chapter on bats is lovely. IIRC, this is where Dawkins shows how their sonar world is like our visual world? Especially interesting since reading some of the articles on echolocation in blind humans — so effective that they can, for example, mountainbike! — in which the echoes are actually processed in visual areas of the brain.*
/Thread highjacking with neat but not relevant stuff. It’s definitely time for a re-read of TBW.
* Ed Yong’s write up: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/05/25/the-brain-on-sonar-%E2%80%93-how-blind-people-find-their-way-around-with-echoes/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+NotRocketScience+%28Not+Exactly+Rocket+Science%29
“Some of the clips are profoundly disturbing: the Jewish convert to Islam in Jerusalem who dismisses all non-Muslims as kafir who have no right to live in the land of the Muslims; the Christian fundamentalist who does not shrink from applying Old Testament penalties to those who work on Sunday (stoning), homosexuals, or those who worship other gods; the boldly arrogant Ted Haggard, who counsels Dawkins, arrogantly, not to be arrogant; the Christian who justifies the murder of physicians who perform abortions; the children who are brought up to affirm lies because they are religious, and to dismiss the truth because it contradicts scriptures written, variously, thousands of years or 1300 years ago”
The meticulous arguments of theologians are totally irrelevant to reality. The people you describe above are the problem and they are the enemy to be fought. Worrying about what theologians say and write completely wastes badly needed time and energy.
The meticulous arguments of theologians are totally irrelevant to reality. The people you describe above are the problem and they are the enemy to be fought. Worrying about what theologians say and write completely wastes badly needed time and energy.
My immediate response to this, Sailor, was, “yes, quite right”, because it might be more effective to concentrate on raising awareness of the wrongs than to waste time over the underlying ideology. But after a moment it occured to me that the ideologies and the apologetics have such a high profile in the media and on the internet that it is impossible to ignore them. When decent people protest about abuses, there seems to be an army of columnists and bloggers and clerics ready and willing to criticise the protesters. I think that atheists are right to attack along both fronts: protest about the abuse of human rights and show the absurdity of the theology or ideology or lazy assumptions that underpin those abuses.
Obviously, as we’re a conversation, not an organisation, people will do what comes most naturally — as Eric does here, in bringing his learning and experience and eloquence to the issues that seem most urgent to him. It’s the weight of the protest, not the organisation or the planning, that will matter in the end, and this will be most effective if people are free to take up the issues with which they are most concerned and in which they are most able.
“I’m not altogether sure that it would indeed benefit TGD to have taken more note of sophisticated theologians.”
I don’t want to discourage you Eric, but please note that the more sophisticated the theologian, the more sophisticated the bullshit. My advice? avoid these creatures as if they carried the plague (which in a real sense they do).
@Gordon: Yes. Thank you for reminding me that it’s definitely each to his own – I sometimes forget that. Having spent much time in the past discussing with my highly theologically-trained jesuit cousin, I tend to downplay the value of refutation at that level. To me it’s just bullshit and not worth my time – but it did get a lot of my effort in the past and I do seriously resent the waste of time and energy on it.
And Eric please don’t think I’m denigrating your post, I’m not. I just, at the age of 72, have completely lost patience with RCC and it’s theological crap, as well as all its other crap. I’m about there with philosophers too! Screw anybody who thinks the trolley problem is worth a gigasecond of thought!
@Sailor: I feel the aging, too, and it’s frustrating to feel that we may not live to see some real fruit for all our efforts. But we are the ones who have made a start, and we have something to give to our children, and if they are not globally warmed to death they have every chance of building on our foundations. We have to stand by being reasonable human beings. At least, whenever I think of Aisha Duhulow, that’s the only way I can think of to reassure myself.
And another thing. It’s a pleasingly ungeriatric way to spend one’s geriatric years, attempting to écraser l’infame. Keeps the mildew off.
Alright, Ophelia, so it’s Sunday evening and I’ve just poured a fourth glass… But quite right. En avant. Let’s squash the buggers.
Well, Trolleyology might be a bit pointless, but I think what I am doing is philosophy, so don’t be “about there” with all philosophy. Conceptual clarity is very important, and, besides, philosophers nowadays, as philosophers of old, are not just armchair thinkers, but they’re out there doing very practical research as well. Consider Patricia Churchland, for instance. Or think of Anthony Grayling, and all that he contributes to the atheist/humanist movement.
Simple answer to the Stalin-Mao line : they were both dogmatic totalitarian ideologies, as are all religions (totalitarian as in making claims about, and laying claim to, the entirety of reality).
Naziism was a *specifically* religious ideology, in which the Master Race was descended from heaven with a divine mandate (plus a quasi-divine leader and sacred texts (Mein Kampf and Triumph of the Will, which was shown in theatres every day)).
Methinks Dawkins is trying to weasel out with the “communism is not atheism” line.
The point really is that *dogmatism* leads to atrocity and oppression.
Even more importantly, religion is not only about dogma, and atheism does not always equate to critical thinking.
Dogmatic atheism was a big part of the communist agenda.
A lot of people call Dawkins and his ilk “militant atheists”, to which they take great umbrage and huff and puff about “when have we ever blown up buildings ?” etc etc.
To my mind, the Dawkins brigade are the equivalent of evangelical Christians (rather than Islamic militants).
Both groups try very actively to spread their worldview and “win converts” as it were.
And a large part of this effort consists of disparaging those with different views and calling them names (see the Pharyngula blog for good examples of this from the atheist side).
So, to summarize.
- Atheists can be just as dogmatic as religionists.
- Dawkins and co, are “evangelical atheists” rather than atheist fundamentalists.
- The communist regimes were the atheist equivalent of theocracies, and just as repressive, if not more.
And the danger is that the attempt to win converts and disparage “the other side” too often slides into dogma and intolerance.
1. Only in a very loose sense of “dogmatic”. There is no literal atheist dogma, nor can there be, since there is no atheist authority to lay it down. There is much atheists in general, and new atheists in particular, are agreed upon; particularly the disinclination to believe in God in the absence of evidence (“Show me the sausages!”). But that’s only a broad principle of skepticism in general, not of atheism in particular.
2. Yes, Dawkins et al. are marked by ardent or zealous enthusiasm for a cause, viz., persuading others that theistic worldviews are misguided and harmful (net). Why do you say that like it’s a bad thing?
3. Yes, but atheism was just one aspect of communist ideology: Communism is not atheism, else all atheists would be communists! Thus, Dawkins is quite right to say that no one was killed, by atheists, in the name of atheism — only by atheists in the name of communism (or some other atheistic ideology).
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